merelyn: yes, that is panda from skins hugging a giant fluffy cupcake pillow. (SGA We hot)
[personal profile] merelyn
Inspired by [livejournal.com profile] brindel's post on David Hewlett, and the comments therein, specifically [livejournal.com profile] clarkangel's here.


Like [livejournal.com profile] brindel, it must be stated that Rodney McKay is the main reason why I watch SGA. (Okay, Zelenka too.) I do love me some DH, and I think he's a brilliant actor, probably the best on the show. For me, when it comes to actors, brilliant acting is about 50 times hotter than anything else. You could be the prettiest thing ever, but if you can't deliver a line, ugh.

Also, it's very easy to become confused when trying to differentiate between the actor and the character he/she plays. I certainly have a difficult time of it. So if the following rambling on DH and Rodney and JF and John is completely incoherent, apologies in advance.


To begin with, Rodney McKay is not a hero in any conventional sense. On another show, he would be another Kavanagh, the irritating scientist side character that you want to hit. And yet, here, on SGA, he's one of the leads. It's one of the most original things about the show. Take a look at "The Rising". After the MALP goes through, and they get the all clear to go, Rodney's comment is: "Looks like we're not getting out of this." Sure it's a joke, but not really. Action! Adventure! Another Galaxy! These are the very staples of the Sci-Fi genre.

You can tell that if Rodney had his way, he'd stay at home exploring Ancient technology from his ratty couch and leave the action and adventure to someone else. He is not the person you expect to see on a show like this, which is why watching his character develop, make connections, be brilliant and brave and still undeniably flawed that is one of the great pleasures of Season 1.

DH's job as an actor, therefore, is to make us not like Rodney, necessarily, but understand him. To take Rodney McKay and show us everything human he can about him. And DH is brilliant in this regard. With Rodney McKay, David Hewlett has managed to make a character who is, on the surface, a completely obnoxious asshole, almost entirely sympathetic. His performance is, as [livejournal.com profile] brindel says, nuanced, complex, and most importantly, very accessible. We know what is going on in Rodney's head practically all the time. We can see what he's thinking. We understand him, which is why we feel for him. And even if he behaves like an ass sometimes, and even though I know that in real life Rodney McKay would probably drive me batshit, the feeling doesn't change.

I think it's hard, though, to compare DH and JF's performances. John Sheppard is an entirely different kettle of fish from Rodney. He is as close to a big damn hero as the scrappy Atlantis team is going to get. He's charming and good-looking and we are automatically disposed to like him. But there is also, on the surface, not a lot there. Joe Flanigan's job as an actor is different: to flesh out the character, give Sheppard something more than the cardboard cutout quipping flyboy type we've seen before in other shows.

And no, you can't see everything Sheppard is thinking by JF's facial expressions. And while you could argue that it's because JF's performance isn't as skilled as it could be, you could also argue that Sheppard is not the type of character who would wear his heart on his sleeve (whereas Rodney, well, he kind of is). John is not going to be telegraphing every emotion he has to the outside word. Either could be valid. But the thing is, even with all we've seen of his character, it's hard to say which is true.

Even though Sheppard is the "hero" of the show, we don't actually know much concrete about him. His character is difficult to pin down. He's unpredictable. He's surprising. It's easier for me to explain what John Sheppard isn't than what he is; what he wouldn't do in a situation, as opposed to what he would. I think I know his character, but how much of that is based on speculation?

And now that I think about it, fanon has done a lot more (for me personally) at opening up the character- giving him backstory, angstiness, darkness, etc, things that we only see tantalizing flashes of on the show:

Flipping a coin. Liking ferris wheels. Flying. Sending his letter from Pegasus. Closet math geekiness.

All of these are tiny little pieces that the show has dropped, pieces that fandom has grabbed onto and interpreted and extrapolated for itself. And it's really through fandom more than canon that my emotional attachment to Sheppard has come from. Fic-wise, I think that's also why I can read fics that have very different takes on John, and buy into them. Rodney, on the other hand, is the kind of character you either nail or you don't. Because David Hewlett puts it all out there to see. Joe Flanigan doesn't. Sheppard, consequently, remains more of a mystery to figure out.

I'd like to think it's a deliberate choice on JF's part, a reflection of the fact that Sheppard is a hard person to know well. Whatever else you want to say about him, JF is very good at making you feel that there is something going on under that much remarked upon hair, even if it's hard to always get an intellectual grasp on what that is. Personally, I am (for now) chalking this failure up to the writers and not so much JF's acting. I think the show could be a lot better at giving us some more revealing moments for John.

Hopefully, in the future, it will. Because while I will continue watching SGA for Rodney McKay, I will also keep tuning in for other reasons. To see if we ever get to the bottom of a certain Lieutenant Colonel. To find out all the backstory that's lurking around. To see what JF will do with some quality material for his character. Because I get the feeling if it happens, it's going to be very interesting indeed.

YES!

Date: 2005-08-12 11:45 am (UTC)
ext_1476: (Default)
From: [identity profile] brindel.livejournal.com
Oh, wow! Yes!

This is fantastic! And exactly the way I feel about them too. You *really* REALLY need to post this over at sga_noticeboard because you'll get better reponses and replies with *this* than I ever would with my blurb thing.

This is great and *needs* to be shared!

Go!

Post it now! *g*

Re: YES!

Date: 2005-08-12 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merelyn.livejournal.com
Done. You happy, now? :P

Re: YES!

Date: 2005-08-12 04:33 pm (UTC)
ext_1476: (Default)
From: [identity profile] brindel.livejournal.com
Quite. Thank you. *crosses eyes and sticks out tongue back* *g*

Date: 2005-08-12 02:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-moonmoth.livejournal.com
I'm definitely on the side that it isn't any deficit in JF's acting abilities that lead to Sheppard's inscrutability. Having watched some of his other material, I think that's just the type of actor he is, which possibly reflects on the kind of man he is, and that in that respect he's perfectly cast for Sheppard. John isn't a character that wants/needs/doesn't mind other people seeing everything that's happening with him. I find him so interesting because often you don't know, although we do frequently get hints of fear, rage, genuine affection behind all that insincerety and irreverence. I find it intriguing, and it's lead to some wonderful extrapolations of his character/backstory in fanfic. So in that respect, I think I'd rather not know, because then the endless possibilities are cut away. But at the same time, I would dearly love to find out more about him, and see what JF could do with some quality material for him. I agree that it will be very interesting. From what I've read of spoilers, I'm hoping that we'll get to see something like that in a couple of months.

Date: 2005-08-12 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merelyn.livejournal.com
I think that's just the type of actor he is, which possibly reflects on the kind of man he is, and that in that respect he's perfectly cast for Sheppard.

Yes! I think that's what I was trying to say. You put it better.

From what I've read of spoilers, I'm hoping that we'll get to see something like that in a couple of months.

"Epiphany" here we come! Normally I hate being spoiled, but with this show for some reason I am spoiled like a 'mo and I like it. :)

Date: 2005-08-12 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-moonmoth.livejournal.com
Normally I hate being spoiled, but with this show for some reason I am spoiled like a 'mo and I like it. :)

Heh, I'm trying to ration the spoilering, but my life is very boring right now and, well, the internet's just there... *twitches*

Date: 2005-08-12 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merelyn.livejournal.com
*snort* I feel you.

Date: 2005-08-12 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
There's an issue here with fan perceptions and the opinions therein that really comes down to two parts, both of which lead into the same thing.

Part of the issue is that (Lt. Col.) John Sheppard isn't meant to be the accessible character and Rodney McKay is.

You state that John's character is the one that we're automatically disposed towards liking but I don't think that -- on a whole as watchers of science fiction in general (for much of the audience these aren't the only science fiction they watch or read), and the Sci-Fi Channel programming and Stargate in particular -- is true. McKay is the accessible character and the character that we identify with because his reactions are most reasonably connected to the audience at home. We like him because we would be having screaming panic attacks as well, and David Hewlett plays to that very, very well.

It's the same reason fanon softens McKay's character, giving him more characteristics of who we, as the general we of fans, are. And that's something the writers -- such as Peter DeLuise, who is the softened version of McKay as any of his director's series interviews will attest to -- recognize, being of geekdom themselves. A fact which fandom doesn't pay enough attention to when they start discussing the writer's possible intentions in my experience.

Playing into that is the other part: If McKay is the accessible character, and meant to be the accessible character, then he needs someone to play off of and contrast to. He needs a subdued (straight) man to his loud (funny) man, and that's the role that John Sheppard fits. Sheppard's humor often exists for McKay to react to or to cause in reaction, because that dynamic works.

And so Sheppard's revelations are smaller, quieter than McKay's, and fandom often neglects to notice that they're there. It's written off as "mysterious", or a coincidence, or missed entirely with the infamous selective vision fandom possesses. (My favorite selective vision incident as of late is nearly everyone's commentary about Beckett's doctorly ways when he explicitly states in the episode that he wished to treat the Wraith only in order to keep him alive so that he might tell how to reverse the demolecurization process.)

So, while you see commentary upon commentary on McKay's declarations, bitches, and revelations, Sheppard's more subtle tendencies are only rarely discussed and then often only in context of McKay. (A response that's rampant in the SG-1 side of the fandom with Teal'c, though ironically we have the most background about him, his actual political leanings, his goals, desires, and barriers, etc, out of all the SG-1 team.)

You see endless discussion about what McKay's fainting really meant -- when it might very well have been to establish he has hypoglycemia as he says he does -- but much less discussion about Sheppard's awkwardness with trying to impress a woman who's company he enjoyed, when the latter says quite a bit about the character and his possible romantic history.

[To be continued. Argh!]

Date: 2005-08-12 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
[In fact, notably, Sheppard and Beckett respond almost identically to women they're attracted to, though Beckett's characterised by fanon as an almost virgin and naive more times than not while Sheppard gains the reputation of ladies' man and cad even when it's established in canon he had difficulty getting dates.]

Frankly, while I have much issue with the Stargate writers in general and the concept of emotional follow through, this particular issue is the fault of the fandom, not the writers, and fandom's selective viewing habits. This is especially true because Joe Flanigan does put it all out to see, in body language, in the tone of his voice, but because it isn't as loud as Hewlett's chosen acting for the character people stop seeing it. Maybe they just want obvious.

This isn't to say that DH isn't the better actor. From what I've viewed of their work (and I've seen most of what DH has been in, much of it before he was ever cast in Atlantis, as I'm a fan from his Cube days), DH has the sort of range that exceptional for actors. While JF has good range (it's especially interesting to watch his guest spot on CSI: Miami as an abusive boyfriend and contrast that to the way he plays Sheppard), DH is in his own sort of class. But the limitations that fandom often sees on the character are not, I think, the fault of his acting in the slightest, nor are the majority of them the fault of the writers.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-08-12 02:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-moonmoth.livejournal.com
even when it's established in canon he had difficulty getting dates

Are you referring to his dorkiness with Chaya here, or has there been some other indication that I'm not remembering?

Personally, I see him as someone who would have no trouble picking up a girl in a bar, but would be terribly awkward with someone he really cared about. I think he felt a connection and sort of longing for Chaya from the get go, which lead to his desire to not fuck things up, and hence his nerves. If he simply wanted the company of a pretty girl, or to get an easy lay, I have no trouble imagining him ratcheting up the charm.

Good points about his sutblety, though, in conctrast to McKay's excitability. And you don't know where I can d/l his CSI:Miami ep, do you?

Date: 2005-08-12 02:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
I haven't the slightest clue where you might download it as I netflixed the disc with my account, but my suggestion would be to try one of the numerous Bit Torrent sites, such as Torrent Spy.

As for Sheppard, in his "hallucination" in the episode Home, numerous people show up at his apartment: old friends, an old teacher, and, as he exclaims when he's had enough of this charade, at least one woman who wouldn't date him. Considering the writers took the time to put that in, it seems likely it was significant and supposed to mean something. Paired with his reaction to Chaya, well...

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-08-12 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-moonmoth.livejournal.com
Of course, I knew I'd forgotten something *g* thanks for pointing that out. I guess the fact that she in particular was there in his hallucination was significant in that he's probably had a fair few relationships by his age, but you don't see any of his girlfriends, only the failed attempt. Obviously it meant something to him.

Do you know the name of the epi? I might try and rent it as bittorrent messes with my internet.

re finding out the title of the episode JF is in

Date: 2005-08-12 06:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raveninthewind.livejournal.com
I am sure if you look JF up on IMDB.com, you will see the ep listed, with number if not title.

Date: 2005-08-12 11:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
The episode is called 'Slow Burn' and, more helpfully, it's on the fourth disc of S2 of "CSI: Miami", if you're looking to rent it.

As for her significance, it might very well have been that she was there to signify that he hasn't had a fair few relationships by his age.

To look at it this way: Previous to agreeing to Atlantis, John has spent the eleven months on a base in Antarctica (McMurdo), where dating opportunities are bound to be slim between the AF's rules for fraternization and a general lack of people for the majority of the year. Previous to that, we know that he was doing helicopter rescue in Afghanistan which, while not as remote as McMurdo, certainly has the same disadvantages socially.

Within 'Home' he imagines a bachelor pad, notably devoid of personal pictures, with all the toys that he can bring together, though his behavior with Chaya (which is typical of him if his behavior with others is anything to suggest -- he has a tendency to get attached quickly or not at all, whether or not he shows it) denotes that he isn't much of a bachelor.

Then, to go more into the realm of fan wankery here, one has to consider how his skills contrast with his desires. Contrast him to Dex and Mitch from 'Home', again, and you discover that John Sheppard, math genius, isn't a man that would fit in there, but Shep, the pilot, is.

People have a tendency to adapt themselves around who others want them to be, even in the case of Mckay who adapts himself to be the personal "enemy" that people want to have there to fight, and that seems especially true of Sheppard, with his conflicts between the smart he is and the smart most pilots are.

So, "Shep" adapts himself around that, around the cocky, charming man, and then notably still doesn't get dates even when, apparently, the opportunity for dating arises? It's definitely significant and most likely meant to signify that Sheppard does have trouble dating, either because of things like how he is with Chaya or perhaps because he's going for the women that are expected of him and not directly his interest.

Either way, it's one of those things people do tend to forget and so I'm constantly bringing it, like other Sheppard things, up in comments and getting "Oh, right!", which is just funny, really.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-08-13 11:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-moonmoth.livejournal.com
(which is typical of him if his behavior with others is anything to suggest -- he has a tendency to get attached quickly or not at all, whether or not he shows it)

Interesting point. I guess I can see this in his relationships with Teyla and McKay, Ronan, possibly Ford and a couple of others. And of course the city itself - you can tell he loves it there. To extend that into wankery (because we all enjoy a good wank), maybe that comes from his childhood as the son of an officer, moving around all the time and having to continually make new friends? Maybe led to him appreciating certain qualities in people that will make him get attached quickly?

even in the case of Mckay who adapts himself to be the personal "enemy" that people want to have there to fight

Hmm... I'm sure that I agree with this point. At least, I can't see McKay doing this consciously, making a conscious effort to be that, as I can with Sheppard.

Hey, I just wanted to say thank you for making me think about this. I've never subscribed to the Sheppard-as-cad interpretation, but I hadn't thought about it as deeply as this. It's been incredibly helpful :) And now I know you have all these thinky thoughts, there may be fic-related bugging in your future *saeva runs away screaming*

Date: 2005-08-13 11:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nihil-est.livejournal.com
This is Saeva, I'm just on my icon journal and working so can't switch over at the moment but don't want to forget to comment.

And I don't think that McKay does it consciously but given what we know of his childhood it may be the only type of relationship he knows how to mimic, and thus a very unconscious but there issue.

And feel free to bug me for story thoughts anytime. My AIM is loupsdeguerre (which you can find in my userinfo as well), and I'm on a lot.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-08-12 08:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clarkangel.livejournal.com
I don't know where you can DL but it's called SLOW BURN and he was creepy and an asshole. LOL
The character, not Joe.

Date: 2005-08-13 11:33 am (UTC)

Date: 2005-08-12 03:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merelyn.livejournal.com
Hmm. This is very interesting. I should preface this by saying that I'm still pretty new around here, so I don't really know for sure exactly what fan perceptions are, or whose character gets more attention from fandom. I guess I should read more meta. :)

Still, my general impression is that yes, you're right, the fandom is more inclined to pick over every little bit of Rodney McKay than any other character. I can see that he could (and possibly does) overshadow the fandom.

So, while you see commentary upon commentary on McKay's declarations, bitches, and revelations, Sheppard's more subtle tendencies are only rarely discussed and then often only in context of McKay.

However, I don't think that Sheppard's character is exactly ignored. And maybe you're right, people aren't writing long essays on what one of John's eyebrow arches could possibly mean. But I've come across a lot of meta that does try to get to the bottom of him, and a lot of fic that gives him backstory and doesn't just put him into the ladies man stereotype.

And while there is a lot of the "McKay's hypoglycemic, *that's* why he's an asshole" around here, I think there's also a lot of "John only flips a coin to decide whether he wants to go, oh, he has no one in his life, and he's estranged from his jerk father, *angst*".

This is especially true because Joe Flanigan does put it all out to see, in body language, in the tone of his voice, but because it isn't as loud as Hewlett's chosen acting for the character people stop seeing it.

I agree with you, actually. What I was trying to say up there- the whole actor/role thing got a bit confused, sorry- was more that because Sheppard is not an easily readable person, JF's performance is not as easily readable and DH's, who has a character that is pretty transparent most of the time. Whereas DH is great at broadcasting all those complicated emotions at once, it's what the character requires. JF is great at hinting at what's going on under the surface, which is exactly what his character requires.

And maybe we can't blame the writers, and I certainly don't know exactly what their intentions are for Sheppard, I still think that there we are given frustratingly few details as to what Sheppard's backstory is, the things that have shaped him that are ultimately operating behind the character. And I don't think it's just that fandom isn't paying attention to his performance. I think it's that while I can say, "Oh, look at the message Sheppard sends to Sumner's family, you can see that even though he thinks he did the right thing there, there's still all the guilt and enormous sense of responsibility," I still don't ever have the feeling that I really know Sheppard well, and whether that's a function of Sheppard's character, JF's acting, the writers, or just me being obtuse, I don't know.

Date: 2005-08-12 06:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ann-tara.livejournal.com
Frankly, while I have much issue with the Stargate writers in general and the concept of emotional follow through, this particular issue is the fault of the fandom, not the writers, and fandom's selective viewing habits. This is especially true because Joe Flanigan does put it all out to see, in body language, in the tone of his voice, but because it isn't as loud as Hewlett's chosen acting for the character people stop seeing it. Maybe they just want obvious.

I couldn't agree more with this entire statement. Word to the nth power here.

As I stated in the previous Mckay essay, IMO Sheppard, via Joe or the writing or both, is displaying a lot of depth, a lot of vulnerability and layers I frankly didn't initially expect of this character. I don't think he's the typical hero at all, especially with the black marks on his service record and the way the ranking military officers still refer to him (as in the flashback in The Intruder).

But, as you say, Sheppard is the quiet one and the one you have to put in a little effort to get to know. That's who he's supposed to be. We get hints that are tantalizing, IMO, and that only makes me hungry for more all the time. With not only McKay (but especially him), but also Weir and Teyla, even Ford when he was around, we get open details, a lot of who they are laid out on a platter for us. And at this point I'm guessing that's the way the writers want it for now, and there's a reason for that (at least, I hope there is). So in contrast to popular fan opinion, I actually think McKay is the one the writers fully intended for everyone to notice right off the bat. Sheppard is the one we're supposed to learn about in smaller, quieter increments, and I for one am liking that even though I want answers.

Date: 2005-08-12 08:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clarkangel.livejournal.com
I think you're spot on with what you said.

Date: 2005-08-16 12:37 pm (UTC)
tinny: Something Else holding up its colorful drawing - "be different" (Default)
From: [personal profile] tinny
Thanks for this amazing analysis. I adore JF as Sheppard, and I get much more out of his understated performance than I get from DH. (but both are great actors, I enjoy the show because they're both there)

The ideas about Sheppard's dating 'habits' and difficulties to reconcile the 'pilot' image he's built of himself with the math geek hidden inside are great. Because you just *know* he's deliberately constructed a lot of what we see, to hide behind. That's all very intriguing and I think that's why I love Sheppard so much - and because there might be more dark secrets hidden behind it all. You brought those thoughts into focus. Thanks!

p.s.: About the discussion on Shep's childhood... is there any evidence that Sheppard comes from a military family? I know, it's established in fanon like a rock, and probably not going to go away ever. But I'd be surprised if it was mentioned on the show (or in interviews) - at least I've never heard of it. I personally like to think that Sheppard's father is not military.

Date: 2005-08-16 01:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
I personally like to think that Sheppard's father is not military.

So would I, but unfortunately it's on the Sci-Fi Channel's official website that John Sheppard is son of a famous Cold War Colonel, though it doesn't clarify what branch.

Though the fanon assertions that John was moved all the time and that he's alienated as an adult from his military father are completely that - fanon.

My personal spin on it is that his father was only stationed in three places over John's childhood, including Germany during the Cold War, and that the reason he wasn't a famous Cold War General is that he died, essentially orphaning John, when John was 12. That's also entirely fanon but I like it better *grins* and it works with the completely blatant parallels I see between John and Daniel Jackson.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-08-18 07:23 pm (UTC)
tinny: Something Else holding up its colorful drawing - "be different" (Default)
From: [personal profile] tinny
unfortunately it's on the Sci-Fi Channel's official website that John Sheppard is son of a famous Cold War Colonel

Oh, dang. :(( It really really doesn't fit, I think. He has none of the attributes you'd get from someone disciplined enough to serve. The usualy interpretation is thus to make him rebellious, but I don't see that in him at all. I just see forced laziness with a desire to hide and not perform. For me, it doesn't fit. (But then, I'm notoriously bad at judging character. :) )

including Germany

Why Germany?

essentially orphaning John, when John was 12

That actually works much better with the fake slacker attitude and the suppression I see in him.

I don't know much about Daniel, but I'm starting to like him. (Now that RDA has left the show, I can actually bear watching it :))

Date: 2005-08-12 02:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackie-brown.livejournal.com
That's the same reason I can read many takes on John but am single-minded about my Rodney fic :) There's some stuff that needs to be there for John - for me, he is a runner and a loner, for instance, and I also think he is exceedingly smart and ruthless under the charm, but all the backstory people write has been fascinating.

I also agree that JF is doing a good job with limited material to work with. Plus which, he's so hot he could mop the floor every week and I'd want to lick the TV screen :D

Date: 2005-08-12 03:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gurrier.livejournal.com
To begin with, Rodney McKay is not a hero in any conventional sense. On another show, he would be another Kavanagh

On another show, he pretty much was another Kavanagh. When we first met McKay on SG1, he was unlikeable, pompous, a thorn in the stars' sides. It was obviously intended to be a once-only appearance.

But DH made him more than he was written, made him memorable. Rodney started turning up in fan fiction; a lot of people saw him as a love interest for Sam Carter. Many minor once-off characters in SG1 caught the fans' interest, but few became recurring characters. TPTB must have felt the love too, in this case!

Much the same seems to be happening with Zelenka (and I love it!) - a good actor takes a minor, slightly humourous, one-off character and turns him into someone we care about. It's happening with Beckett too, although the team doctor is a larger role than either McKay or Zelenka were initially.

My point is, these are all cases where the actors have taken what little they were given, and made much more of it. Don't get me wrong, I *like* what JF as Sheppard. But I don't think he's doing as much with his character as the other actors are doing with theirs; I don't think Sheppard has grown beyond what the writers envisioned.

Date: 2005-08-12 08:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clarkangel.livejournal.com
The difference on SGA though is that the writers WRITE for DH/Mckay. They give him everything. Sometimes to the detriment of the other characters.Although..I know more about Teyla and Weir than I know about Shep. I know very very little about Shep. But I get so much from him becaues of Joe. That's great acting. To get so little. He's given NOTHING fromt he writers to tell us who Shep is. Not a thing. So everything we get, and All my emotional buttons are hit by ShEP and I'm totally invested in SHEP..come from Joe.

Sheppard, as written, is a one dimensional, cardboard cut out. But from Joe I've seen the man Sheppard is. The guy that's vulnerable. That has guilt. That is passionate. That follows through. The man that cares about the people in Atlantis. The man that's more than a glib line. The man that can shoot Kolya without blinking after killing off all those Genii then Run up to Weir and apologize for what he did and ask if she's all right.

The guy that can figure out the thing in BROTHERHOOD but about shook with relief when he didnt' die. THAT all comes from Joe. All those moments in HOME. The cute dorkiness with Chaya. The guy that says one thing but when you look in his eyes he's thinking something else. Feeling something else.

None of that is written out or given or explained to us the way we get it all for/with Rodney. Joe is the one giving us that. And I love it.

Date: 2005-08-12 09:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fantasyenabler.livejournal.com
I've read so much on this subject this morning, having gone from one link on the SGA noticeboard to the other, that I've forgotten who's said what, but whoever said this, which I've paraphrased into my own words, I want to say that I agree with them: McKay is the character the audience is supposed to relate to; Sheppard is the one they don't relate to, but are left wanting to figure out. McKay is the accessible one; Sheppard is the inscrutable one, and while the audience knows exactly how they are supposed to react to the one, they're somewhat confounded by how they are supposed to react to the other one.

And to me, I think that's very true. Despite his intelligence, McKay is the closest thing we've got to an "Everyman," someone whose default position is "scared and neurotic," like ninety-five percent of the rest of us, but somehow manages to get through the challenges life hands him, in a way the rest of us would like to imagine that we would ourselves. He is the metaphorical "Us" out there on the grand adventure. His adversities are our adversities; his successes are our successes. Thus, it is obvious why he would attract and earn so much of our affection.

Sheppard, on the other hand, is the "Hero," which is always a much tougher role to handle, since it requires displaying qualities most of us are not prepared to recognize in ourselves. The only way to make the "Hero" relatable is to tap into that lack of recognition, the doubt most of us feel even when outsiders tell us that we are performing excellently in an adverse situation. And to put it out there so that those of us who have triumphed over tough odds can see it, and begin to find the points where the "Hero" can become much more accessible, even as we deny that accessibility.

The above is why so many writers load their "Hero" types down with angst, be it guilt caused by failure or past sins (Joss Whedon's "Angel" and "Malcolm Reynolds"), doubt and insecurities in being able to shoulder a task (JW's "Buffy," David Kemper's "John Crichton"), or a constant lack of regard, from many of the people they've worked their butt off for (Ron Moore's "Starbuck"). These skilled writers know the best way to doom a "Hero" is to write him or her as one-note. To only show them effortlessly saving the day is not interesting and can quickly cause the audience to dismiss them as a cartoon/caricature.

To me, this is where "Stargate" writers failed with O'Neill, and probably why RDA felt so compelled to try to be funny all the time. (Which in my opinion only served to weaken an already paper-thin character.) To be honest, I don't have a great deal of respect for the abilities of the "Stargate" writing staff, a large reason why I've never been able to become a fan of "SG1." These writers seem to be perfectly happy to write caricatures instead of people, and to cater to the mainstream tendencies of scifi audiences. To me, this means they always choose to go with action over character development, and regularly cheat the more emotionally involved segment of their audience of the small moments that they need so much.

That's why I'm surprised that I actually like "Atlantis," and I think that a great deal of that has to do with the fact that JF has managed to impress me with what he can do with the material he's been handed. To my mind, the "Stargate" writers are writing that show the same way they always have: writing for action more than character and when they do write for character, they tend to only be comfortable writing it as broad comedy or ineffectual romance. Since JF's Sheppard is always going to be the go-to guy for action, and not the go-to guy for comedy, that means he will always end up either shooting things or having to find some way to sell the lines the writers mistakenly believe are the way two grown adults would interact with each other romantically. In other words, he will almost always end up with the short end of the character development stick, and be left trying not to let his actions fall into the realm of caricature.

(To be continued...d*** it!) :)

Date: 2005-08-12 09:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fantasyenabler.livejournal.com
Thus, the fact that JF has managed to keep the Sheppard character interesting, that he can use his body language and facial expressions to imply that there's a deeper, darker meaning lying beneath the cliche dialogue and actions -- and that he can do the hard work himself and tap into that angst that other actors get *written* for them -- truly impresses me. Yes, he's pretty, but so are a lot of actors, and if that was all he had going for him, I'd be changing the channel. In my case, he makes me want to *see* what's going on underneath his character's surface. And that keeps me intrigued by him in a way the "Stargate" writers and RDA never managed to pull off for O'Neill.

So to bring this all back to a point: Yes, DH is a great actor who has done a fantastic job transcending the weaknesses of the "Stargate" writers. But to me, so is JF, who has the much harder job. And I don't say this as someone who typically looks to the "Hero" as my favorite character. Personally speaking, I'm the kind of fan who found Willow's shy confidence more relatable than Buffy's courage, Wesley's insecurity more accessible than Angel's valor, and Wash's quiet strength more appealing than Mal's boldness. But in this case, I actually find myself preferring the "Hero" to the "Geek." Because I've come to believe that underneath the "Hero" is a completely different type of character altogether, and I'm more than willing to come along for the ride to see when that "truth" is finally revealed.

Date: 2005-08-12 09:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clarkangel.livejournal.com
Well...Damn. You said what I feel/think and you said it so amazingly better than I have/could. So..I thank you kindly for somehow getting what was in my head down here. You said it all. Thanks again.
And OMG..you loved Wesley too? I liked Angel, once he was on his own show, but I loved LOVED Wesley.

Date: 2005-08-13 03:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fantasyenabler.livejournal.com
You and I have talked a lot today, but oh yeah, I loved Wesley. It was so wonderful to watch him grow from the cartoon he was on "Buffy" to the principled crusader he became on "Angel." I mean, even after he was outcast, he tried to carry on the fight. To me, the best part of the otherwise disappointing season five was the way JW allowed him to go out fighting. Made me cry. And cheer when Illyria made her appearance. :)

Date: 2005-08-13 03:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merelyn.livejournal.com
Uh, yeah, what [livejournal.com profile] clarkangel said. *applauds*

Date: 2005-08-13 03:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fantasyenabler.livejournal.com
Thanks. I'm glad you're not upset about the length of my response. I honestly thought it was going to be a couple of paragraphs at most, but half an hour later...*shrugs*

Date: 2005-08-13 04:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merelyn.livejournal.com
Well considering that this post started out as a simple comment on [livejournal.com profile] brindel's lj, I've certainly got no leg to stand on. :)

Date: 2005-08-18 07:38 pm (UTC)
tinny: Something Else holding up its colorful drawing - "be different" (Default)
From: [personal profile] tinny
I have to jump in with my own "me too" here. I am seriously considering dropping the show every week, because the writing annoys me to no end. And then I don't.

It's a bit better than SG-1 (mainly because, like you, Jack O'Neill got on my nerves a lot with the humor I couldn't see in his character, and not having him there makes a lot of difference). I think they did a better job with character and show setup in season 1 of SGA than they did with SG-1. But the writing is still action-oriented and very much focuses on embarrassing comedic elements (eeek, Intruder).

I find it very very comforting that I'm not the only one who has a problem with the writing to such an extent.

Another thing is that SGA was very lucky with their cast. DH is a miracle, and JF is not just 'teh pretty'. I personally don't like to go for the beautiful hero, either. Quite the contrary, I am wary of the hero roles. I was totally expecting to come to hate Sheppard - I was actually surprised that I hadn't picked up any negative vibe in the pilot. (yeah yeah, pretty lead hero, bla) It didn't happen later, either. JF kept me mesmerized and by the time the Storm came around, I was thoroughly hooked. There is so much he is hiding, and I am dying to see it. Unfortunately, I don't trust the writers to get it right...

But for now, I'm perfectly happy to see his secrets explored in fic.

Date: 2005-08-18 09:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fantasyenabler.livejournal.com
JF is not just 'teh pretty'.

Great comment! :) It's the kind of thing that should be on an icon somewhere.

There is so much he is hiding, and I am dying to see it. Unfortunately, I don't trust the writers to get it right...

But for now, I'm perfectly happy to see his secrets explored in fic.


Yeah, I share that fear. Which I think is what has brought me over here to the fandom. I was hoping it would be able to take that potential JF has created and run with it the way it should be run.

(Still loving that line. If you haven't already, you should definitely be iconning it.) :)

well done - again!

Date: 2005-08-18 01:37 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I just started my own business, and don't get out to the Group as much as I'd like. I think you're right on about McKay. I loved the character when he first appeared in SG1. And was thrilled to see him show up in SGA. DH has done a fantastic job in NOT making McKay "too obnoxious" -- it would have been so easy to "dislike" this character if it were played a different way. Instead, we more than just put up with him too - we like him, appreciate him, forgive his silly arrogance, and genuinely enjoy his existence. I can't imagine SGA without him.

I have to ask though: do you think last week's episode was a bit "too much" with the main bad guy (the name escapes me) giving just SO MUCH insight on McKay's personality and need to "under explain and then over deliver to save the day"? I almost thought the writer's were making fun of the fans and the character. Or that someone on the show 'felt' McKay needed explaining. I wound up really not liking that bit of exchange .. and the look that Sheppard gave McKay during that exchange was odd. Almost like Sheppard was originally the only one who ever could have defined McKay like that. ????

What a brilliant, enjoyable discussion

Date: 2006-03-19 05:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yinkawills.livejournal.com

Im really enjoying this discussion. SGA has the best writers in fanfic and the best at meta.Thank you everyone who has posted.

The opaqueness of Sheppard's character serves itself very well to Joe Flannigan's skills as an actor. He's much better than RDA who's Jack O'Neill I ended up liking better in slash fiction than on the screen after say, season's 4/5. By season 8 he seemed to be.. sleepwalking.

Flannigan hints (sometimes) at there being more to Sheppard's character than meets the eye. That's why amazing studies of what there is behind the facade, such as frostfire's incredible
'Here is No Water' and speranza's fabulous 'MVP' work so well.

And then, there's the ultimate psych profile of a Sheppard so charming, sexually magnetic, and lethal as to be veering towards the sociopathic in a series unsettling in its brilliance by cats_bum1 called Deconstucting Rodney...

Ooohhh, I love this fandom!

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